Navigating the Tech CEO Journey

Sriram Viswanathan: Hello, everyone. This is the TechSurge Deep Tech Podcast presented by Celesta Capital. Each episode, we spotlight issues and voices at the intersection of emerging technologies, company building, and venture investments. My name is Sriram Viswanathan, founding managing partner at Celesta Capital.

Today, we are pleased to welcome Mark McLaughlin, a renowned executive investor and board member in the technology world. He is highly, highly accomplished. Mark, of course, serves as the CEO and chairman of Palo Alto Networks for many years, following a decade long stint at Verisign, where he was the president and CEO.

Mark currently serves on the board of Qualcomm as the chairman. He's also on the board of, uh, Snowflake, Rubrik, Snorkel. And Mark, you and I, uh, got to know each other, uh, in the context of a couple of companies that we were involved in, but I've always known you during the last, you know, 10 plus years of the various things that you've accomplished and I've always sort of, you know, admired, what you've been able to do. But I think as our audience will come to appreciate the journey that you've taken is, uh, almost as interesting, if not more interesting as much the accomplishments that you've, you've had. And some of the decisions that you've made is, um, I'm sure are going to be super interesting for our audience.

You're widely recognized as a leader in cybersecurity and data protection. And you were also, you know, part of the Obama administration's national security telecommunications advisory committee, I understand. So that'll be interesting. And given the world that we live in with CrowdStrike and everything else, I wonder what the new administration, you know, whenever it comes up, uh, and how much of a focus you're going to make in cybersecurity.

So, so Mark, thank you very much for joining us. I'm super excited for this conversation. Welcome on board. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. So, Mark, I think, you know, you have a very unique background because, you know, you, you, I'm not sure if you were really trained in technology because you, you went to West Point and you were probably in a different universe.

You may have had a different career, but you spent quite a bit of time and, you know, something happened that changed that trajectory for you to jump into technology. So can you talk about that early days and in what are some of the things that, uh, that you experienced in West Point that I'm sure you are probably using it even today in your professional life? But talk about that time and what made you switch to technology.

‍Mark McLaughlin: Well, the, the summary, uh, would be, I didn't have a plan or I had a plan and then I didn't have a plan, right. And, uh, learned a lot in life about that. But so I, I had the privilege to go to West Point. That is the only thing I ever wanted to do.

I don't know why, not from a military family or anything like that, but if you caught me at six years old, you know, I would have told you that. And then my desire was to just be in the army. Um, and that was my, my goal. Intended a career. Uh, I was very fortunate to get in. Um, I don't know if I could get in today.

Almost certainly not. But I got into West Point and, um, then after I graduated, I became a pilot, helicopter pilot. Um, and then, um, a while after that, uh, unfortunately I was in a, in a helicopter accident. It was nothing too serious. Super dramatic, no fireballs, stuff like that, just enough that, um, um, I ended up getting injured and then medically discharged.

So the point of all that was, you know, I had a plan and then that plan ended.

Sriram Viswanathan: Yeah, that's, that's, that's remarkable. Uh, coming out of that adversity, you know, you, you chose technology. As the, as the path when you could have done, you know, very many other things, or perhaps even, you know, being depressed about, you know, what's happened at that time.

So was that switch, uh, to technology, was that a conscious decision

Mark McLaughlin: or was it? No, um, candidly, it wasn't. And this is another people, you know, something I'll tell young people as well as, uh, you know, some people, everybody's wired differently, right? And some people very much benefit from a life plan. You know, you, there are 25, right.

And you talk to them and they say, here it is. Right. Boom, boom, boom. And I got it all planned out. Right. And, and, and to some extent, maybe that works for people. That's not the way I was wired. And, uh, and I, and I'm not sure that's a great way to think about things because who knows, you know, right. If you sat here, the worst thing in life is missed expectations.

So when you set expectations, they're only yours. And then if you miss them, nobody really cares about it except you, but you can get yourself in a really bad pressure. It's kind of

Sriram Viswanathan: like this classic equation, you know, happiness equals reality minus expectations. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Mark McLaughlin: So in my case, like I said, it's broken down, helicopter pilot, um, wasn't sure what I wanted to do, what I could do, what people would let me do.

And I decided to go to law school. Not because I really wanted to be a lawyer, but I said, I need to get a profession to support people. Myself and her family. So I, so I did, and I was able to get into the school and I went to law school and it was only there studying intellectual property law that I actually started to get interested in really intellectual property, not so much technology, but.

You know, there was clearly associated and, and I was in Seattle and, um, um, and then I had the opportunity, um, again, it was an opportunity to really not deserve in any way, but I was able to come here after graduation and, uh, start to practice with Cooley Godward back when I was a very small firm and in the technology practice, which was very small practice and, uh, do work in the tech space.

Got to work with tech companies and got interested in the technology itself and Silicon Valley, but it was really. The law, you know, the legal career that brought me here.

Sriram Viswanathan: I mean, this is an amazing arc. If you were to think about it from the time that you did IP in Seattle to being chairman of Qualcomm, which is arguably a company that's built on foundations of IP.

Absolutely. That must be, that's a, that's a story. Did you at that time, and you know, this is, you're talking nineties, early 2000 timeframe. You know, the internet was just, you know, exploding. Bing. Cyber, uh, security and, and, and all of that was still not as, uh, center stage as it is today. So Verisign must have been a, you know, it was a sort of may have been perceived as a niche player.

I mean, did you, did you, did you realize that cyber was going to be such a big deal

Mark McLaughlin: 10, 20 years later? Um, I would like to say yes to that. And I think perhaps to some extent, right. And, and you've been around, you know, and a very, very experienced guy too. And, uh, you know, for me, I can always speak for myself to say, you know, how many major tech, you know, tectonic shifts have we lived through payments, the web, you know, like the browser, right.

You know, um, is cyber SAS cloud, right now, AI, you can go down that list and then say, um, candidly for me, how many of them. Was I actually aware of that? I was in the moment, you know, and say, well, only one, right. You know, cyber to answer your question. Um, it appeared to me that security was going to be a growth factor for a very long time.

It appeared to me that Verisign at that time, you know, this may sound crazy today, but at that sign time had the premier. Brand of security, uh, because of the check mark from the SSL certificate business, ultimately, that was a decision that was made to say, we're not going to do that. And, you know, sold off the SSL certificate business and really fundamentally centered down on the DNS business, which was, um, you know, a good decision in of itself, but VeriSign is a great company.

It's done very well. Um, but. Exited the security space and at about that time, uh, Palo Alto Networks came around.

Sriram Viswanathan: Before you go to Palo Alto Networks, how, how did, how did you land the job at, uh, at VeriSign as the CEO? I mean, was that a, was it, was it an obvious choice that you were the CEO or the competition?

Mark McLaughlin: Actually, um, lots of puts and takes in life. So, uh, the first time. And, um, I took some time off, but the point of that, and I'll give this people the advice, whether it's three or six or whatever you can do, I use that time to create a paradigm, uh, and a paradigm means how to think about something, right? You know, and, um, a paradigm is to what would the perfect thing look like?

And, and I talked to a lot of people, I thought about it. I came up with a five point paradigm and say, if I saw something and it rang all five of these bells. I should do it, but for me, the five things were whatever, whatever you're selling, you know, whatever it is, a widget of a brick, I don't know, right.

You know, whatever you're selling that today there exists a large addressable total addressable market for it. Not Gartner says in three years, it's going to be, you know, and, and for me, I said, that's going to be a billion dollars that might sound quaint today, but you know, a billion dollars, people have to spend at least a billion dollars a year on whatever this technology is, right?

Not it's going to spend a billion. The second thing was, um, that if you could assemble, and as an investor, you'll appreciate this one. Like if you could assemble. Sort of the dream team engineering wise around that technology in the building. They're there because as a CEO, you can say, I'm going to get marketing people for sales, be I can do a lot of stuff, really great engineers, attract really great engineers, right?

Yeah. I can't do that. So do you have the dream, the tech dream team in the building that's going to act as the magnet, you know, to bring in increasingly. And then the, uh, the third thing was, is that, um, that there was enough traction around what you were doing that it does, there's, it's far from being de risked, but you could see it, the traction was there, right.

Early enough that people were actually buying it. So you don't end up in the, you know, the, uh, the, the one everybody uses is beta VCR or whatever that was, right. You know, so that was the, the, The third thing, um, the fourth thing was, is that the technology that this dream team was either developed or developing that everybody, including the competition, even if it was grudgingly would admit was disruptive.

It would, it doesn't mean that it's going to work and it doesn't mean that people are going to buy it, but it does mean that people would say. If it worked, well, that would be really different way to do something that people are already spending a billion dollars on, right? Yeah. And then the fifth thing has an A and a B point to it, which is an investment that you might appreciate as well, which was, um, I wanted to be in a private company.

Uh, it doesn't mean you can't find a public company like that, but, you know, you know, I want it to be in a private company, so I would like, in those cases for the investors in the company to have two, uh, Characteristics to it. The first is, is that the firm, um, has made money in this space before as an investor, as an investor, like you had a firm that had had experience in this space and had made money in this space before, so it's not their first foray into this, uh, you know, Because then they would sort of understand the ups and the downs and, you know, uh, so they wouldn't panic in any ways.

Right. And then the associated five B would be the people in this case, the partners, right. The actual partners. Cause I think people confuse venture firms as just like this, you know, this glob, right. It's really the people, uh, that the partners who were the investors and on the board had two characteristics.

They had made money in this space before, and they, as individual investors had made money themselves. Whether in this space or not, why is that important right? You know, so that the partners understand the space already and have some track record in there and again, won't panic and take, ideally take a long view and associate it with that, that they individually, um, don't need to put any points on the board with this company.

If they want to, it would be great if they did. But they don't have to build their brand. Or make some money by this one, because then they are less likely to do short term.

Sriram Viswanathan: They're not using the opportunity to prove to themselves or others that they, they're good at it. They've already done it before.

Mark McLaughlin: They've done it in, in this one is financial, which was, you know, as a firm and as a person, uh, of course they want to make money here. But they already have, so it's not the, this is not the outcome. This, this company is not the outcome. It's going to make the fund to make the brand of the firm or them as individuals.

Right. And so if I put all that together, you know, ultimate, that was Jim Gatz.

Sriram Viswanathan: This is great. I mean, the five are just fantastic. I mean, there's a great model. As you said, it's a paradigm for TAM team traction technology. You just have to come up with the. The fifth one, starting with the T and then you would say, this is Mark's five T rule, or something like that.

I never thought about it that way, but yeah. Yeah. But it's great. But, uh, that's a great segue because this is, you know, Greylock was obviously, you know, a big backer and Hashem was a backer with you and Pa Palo Alto and Sequoia and Sequoia, and, and, and to your fifth point on. The firm has done it before, and both those firms had done it before.

And particularly, you know, Jim and, and, uh, Ashim had been personally involved.

Mark McLaughlin: And so in 2000, so I'm, I'm out of Verisign. I'm not, I'm in this hiatus, you know, working on my paradigm and, um, And, and I, and Jim and Ashim contact me, um, about Palo Alto Networks.  

Sriram Viswanathan: That's Sequoia.

Mark McLaughlin: uh, Yeah. So it's 2008 and they say, we've got this great company.

It's got a lot of traction. It's early, early days and looking for a CEO. And, um, would you be interested? And I said, yeah, I'd be interested. All right. So I had this paradigm. So I met the team, check the five boxes. I had told myself, if you find the five boxes, you take it. How many did you get those? Uh, Karen and I talked, I said, this is the, the five boxer.

Yeah. I'd like to do this, uh, not going to get another one. I don't think. And, um, and she said, uh, we'll, you know, we'll support you and do you think he's right, but, um, don't want to do it, you know, our life is here and the kid, you know, and, um, so all things considered prefer not to, but. Yeah. My kids were younger, but they, you know, we asked them and they're like, no, didn't want to do that.

Right. And so, um, so I passed, uh, was extremely difficult, um, in some ways and easy in some ways, uh, but at the end of the day, this kind of goes to larger points in life, right? We say things. You know, but do we do things right? And, and most people say family first and yeah, of course, you know, and then drag your family all over the world and, um, say, boy, that was a great experience for them.

Right. And maybe it was, I don't know. I'm not judging anything else. In my case, I could only say that when I, Yeah. And said, my family saying they don't want to do this. So if I do do this, but they said to support me, that means that if I say yes, I've done it for me. Right. I can try to kid myself that I've done it for our family.

I can say all those things. Which we all do all the time. We do. And, and there's always enough truth in those things, just enough truth. To sound convince yourself, right. And convince others. Uh, but I came back and I ran, I ran Verisign, then, you know, sold off those businesses I mentioned before, but we kind of got up down to the pure DNS business and then, uh, low and behold, in 2011, Jim and Ashim called me back.

It's three years later. And they said, um, Hey, you know, company's done well. Couple hundred people now. Traction. Like if you go down my list, it's just more solid. Right. And it still met your five, five, if anything, it just underlined a couple of them more intensely. And they said, we're about to, I don't want, I won't get into names here, you know, but they said, we're about to make an offer to somebody as the CEO who can take the company public.

Um, but the team, you know, they really liked you and, and I think you like them and wanted to check whether you might, you I know it's probably no, but just wanted to check. And, um, I was on a plane getting on a plane. I said, how long do I have? And he said, today. And you got off in Chicago, called Karen. And yeah, that's, I told you a story.

So I traded a voicemail by the time we landed. She said, Kids were three years older. Okay. So I called Jim in this case, it was Jim called him back, said, okay, I'm in. And he said, come to the office tomorrow. We'll work out the deal. And I said, I know the guy you're making an offer to. I'll just take his deal.

Yeah. He's good. He's a good negotiator. So I took it sight unseen.

Sriram Viswanathan: And this is, this is a fascinating story. It sort of says something about you personally, but I think more importantly, the things that we all take for granted when we make decisions. Uh, and you seem to have had this inner compass, if you will, of knowing clearly what's important and what the mission is.

Uh, and I have to assume that some of those early seeds of, of knowing what you really want, uh, you know, maybe I'm just trying to make it romantic and, and, you know, tying the story, but it feels like, you know, being in West Point, did it contribute to you having such clarity of thought, notwithstanding the day to day agony of saying no and, and struggling with those decisions?

I have to assume that there is something in your

Mark McLaughlin: So at West Point, we learned a number of things and, you know, they were at the time they sounded like trite statements, but they're, but they're really true. It turns out in life and you know, one that I learned there, it's, was leaders lead. Okay. Well, that sounds nice.

Right. But like, what does that actually mean to lead people? Right. It, you know, it means, you know, you're a leader, you're a leader, The team in front of you and you know, you're in the army, they teach you, you know, when you, you do the field march all day long and you come into, you know, you're going to make your, you know, your set up your position for the night.

Right. First thing you do is take care of your equipment because of your equipment price, you got a real problem, right? Then you take care of your, your troops. Are they fed and check their feet and all these things. And when that's all done.

So like applying that in the business world, um, I actually think is gives, can give you a lot of peace and direction when you, when you do the things that actually Imply or demonstrate, you know, character and values and the things that we all think we are, right. And, you know, so I've, I've had my opportunities to do those things and, you know, I've had my challenges around that as well.

Sriram Viswanathan: Yeah. Um, but fast forward, uh, you know, you took it public and, you know, you grew the company, you know, five X in your tenure, you know, 2018 comes and. Uh, you know, today, what more than a hundred billion dollars, uh, in market cap and really a remarkable success story. And right at that pinnacle, you have another profound, uh, decision to make and, you know, family has grown.

And. You decide to, to hang up the boots and, and really, you know, focus on the family Sure. And talk about that.

Mark McLaughlin: Yeah. So, um, like I say, Karen and I, uh, we have three kids, uh, 28-year-old daughter who's a product manager at Zoom doing great. And a 25-year-old who's actually a, a tech startup here. And, and then, uh, we had a late in life baby age 45.

Uh, we had Andy, right? And, um, so Andy came along and, um. At the time, so he's basically, he's basically, you know, born when I joined Paladin Networks, right? Like he's my Paladin Networks kid, right

Sriram Viswanathan:  You know, so, and you never saw him for six years.

Mark McLaughlin: It's like less than I would wish. Right. You know, so he gets to be seven years old.

I'm in my, you know. Seventh year of being the CEO. And, you know, you mentioned this before in the introduction, but you know, path and Ericsson was a once in a lifetime opportunity. I got the chance to work with the greatest people in the world. And, and it wasn't all roses. Like we had our ups and we had our downs, but we were in a growth industry.

So we enjoyed, uh, uh, a good degree of success as a team. And, and we were in the firefights together and, you know, I couldn't have a tighter bond right, you know, and team as, as you do. And, um, however, uh, Andy is seven and I have two older kids who for Amazing and wonderful. I was rarely home for them except on the weekends.

And, um, and we all know this, if you're a parent, right, you know, you all, everybody knows this, that the difference between seven and 17 in hindsight is, I like to say is 10 minutes in hindsight. We all know that later. Um, people have told us that when kids were seven and you would, you know, do you action anything about that?

Right. You just go, Oh yeah, they grow up quickly. Right. Yeah. Uh, so we, I knew that I had an object lesson in front of me. It was like, I have two older kids that, um, if I could hit the replay button, would it mean that I wouldn't do these jobs and everything? No, I definitely would have done that. But, but would I have, do I know now that I could have carved out, dialed back certain things to be there for them?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I could have done that and still been successful. Right. I think so. Andy's seven. And I started waking up at night, literally going, what are you doing? You know, if you're, you know, you have a shot with a third kid to be very, um, important in their life. You don't have to be, you could keep.

I'm doing what you're doing. Um, and nobody, nobody would blank about that. Right. But it really started to bother me back to those disposition and self awareness to say, why are you doing this? So I came to the conclusion, I'll spare you all the ups and downs over time, not overnight to say, I. I would like to, um, refocus and spend more time at home with Andy.

Now I have to mention that, um, there's a whole story to this. I'll spare you, but, um, Karen had homeschooled all our kids. Okay. So to be at home didn't mean just be at home. It meant be at home and, and try to be a teacher too, right? A full time. Or, you know, or a part time job, right, you know, Monday through Friday to do that.

So I made that decision. It was very, very difficult decision. I spoke to the board about it. I said, I, I gotta go. Um, it has nothing to do with Paul. It's like, it's a very personal thing. Let's figure that out. We did over time, not overnight. And, and, um, I left and, uh, and went home. And since that time I've been a teacher Monday through Friday and, and it was extraordinarily difficult, uh, decision

Sriram Viswanathan: to adjust your, uh, your fast paced life to a more of a coach mentor. Teaching kind of a role.

Mark McLaughlin: To do my, you know, I said, Hey, on, this is what I would tell people that on Friday night, I went home and I was, I was relevant in the business community because I was the, you know, I was the chairman of CEO you know, an important company, cybersecurity. I was very relevant, but I was not as relevant as I wanted to be at home.

And then Monday morning I woke up and I was. Not completely irrelevant, but that trail, you know, that has a half life, right, uh, when you're not in a position, you know, um, but it gave me the opportunity that I took and I'm super glad it did. I became very relevant to at least one kid in the world. That's Andy and Karen to, you know, more ways than I could imagine.

Um, but that was a choice. It was very, very difficult to me.

Sriram Viswanathan: But this, this, this is a great pivot because, you know, you're, you're in your current life, you know, post. 2018, 2019, you've now taken on board positions at Qualcomm and Snowflake and Rubrik and other places. Uh, in a way it's, it's, you know, obviously it's very different than homeschooling Andy, but, uh, you know, I'm not suggesting that you're, you're schooling or mentoring Cristiano or, or the guys in the same level.

But. The reality is that as a board chairman at Qualcomm, your role is very different. You're, you're, you're really playing a role of sort of pulling the entire board together, setting the agenda, you know, sort of solving some gnarly issues on succession and all of that. And so can you, can you touch on that experience?

Because I recall you were there on the board of Qualcomm when, uh, when Paul Jacobs was there and Steve Molenkopf, who was the CEO Prior to Cristiano. So you managed that transition. Were you there when the transition from Paul to Steve happened or?

Mark McLaughlin: Uh, Steve had just taken over and when I joined the board and then I was the chairman for the transition from Steve to Cristiano.

Sriram Viswanathan: So can you, can you talk about the dynamics? Because, you know, I mean, I, obviously you, you don't have to get into the details if it's confidential, but you know, transitions in life in general for your own self as, as you, you know, so eloquently sort of walk through in your own life. Are difficult. But now you're sort of a chairman of a company and you have to sort of help facilitate those transitions.

How easy is that? Or, you know, in this case, particularly at least in Qualcomm case, can you talk about how that transition was to Cristiano?

Mark McLaughlin: Sure. If I just come to the end of it for a minute and say, At Qualcomm, we're extraordinarily fortunate to have Steve. And extraordinarily fortunate that we had Cristiano as the president of QCT at the time.

So the setup was, was good. Right now for, to get a good outcome on that. You know, I've been through a number of, uh, those transitions of, of, Uh, you know, leaving Verisign, uh, leaving Palo Alto and helping bring the cash in. Yeah. And, um, and I was the chairman there and chairing a call. So a number of the, and we just did a CEO transition at Snowflake.

Yeah. Frank to Sridhar. Sridhar. Yeah. So I've had, you know, a fair share of experience in this and, um, but, but, but specifically to this. But here you were more directly involved. Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. And that's where I was going to go. Yeah. Specifically to the chairman role. Um. I think it's important to understand, like, what is, what is the chairman's job?

What's the board's job. And then what's the chairman's job. Right. And there's a lot of stuff you can do. And, you know, but at the end of the day, the board's number one responsibility, my opinion, number one responsibility is who's running the company. Yeah. And then there's a lot after that, right. But number one, and then the chairman's job Is to ensure that, uh, the cohesity and, and, and smooth functioning of the board and the CEO all the time. And also if there are transitions that need to be made to be the one who's really on point, you know, to, to make those things happen, right. And there's a lot of other stuff Germans do do can do, you know, my view on that is.

My way I do things is, um, be in a background, like not actually very few people will know I'm the chairman of Qualcomm and, um, I think that's a good thing. Why would, how can it help the company to, you know, if I'm out every time. So be in the background and make things, uh, try to make things happen smoothly as best you can, because having been a CEO as well.

You know, CEOs are hard charging, working constantly all the time. And the board is just one constituency that they need to work with. Right. They've investors, they have teams, they have partners, they have all sorts of people to work with, you know. And I think that, um, um, you know, CEOs can be going so fast and then forget that you only touch base once every 90 days.

Sriram Viswanathan: Great. So, you know, it's the chairman's job, I think, to, to, to. Yeah. But you're also dealing with, I mean, in this case, particularly, maybe it may have been a little different given the fact that neither Cristiano nor Steve are founders and you're not the founder of the company. So is it easier, uh, to have the tough conversations if I'm not suggesting that Qualcomm had those issues, but is it easier in general as in the board when you're dealing with transitions or having tough conversations when the founder is not involved?

Mark McLaughlin: You know, Steve's case, I think he's Qualcomm 32 years. So he's not founder, but for somebody who's like, that's all I ever did. I came out of college, went to work at Qualcomm. There's a difference, but you get enough time in the seat. Um, some of those differences, uh, disappear right into the background. Um, I think really the, if I put Qualcomm aside for a second, because I could use pallets and networks here, so it just say companies change and evolve over time with market conditions, competitions, all sorts of stuff, right?

And you have to adapt to that and leg up. So what does a good transition look like from a CEO perspective? It would be that. Ideally, the company was in a good position and then the next person legs it up to the next good position. And then another person's going to come in like a, like that's actually a good transition.

Ideally you'd make transitions. Things are working well. Yeah. And now this is the person for the next leg of the journey. Right. Right. And, um. In Qualcomm's case, I'd say, yeah, that was the case. Steve, we, Qualcomm had a lot of issues, right? You know, but Steve managed for all those issues and got it into the position to say, um, there's a growth business now, not one that's playing defense relative to all these legal issues, you know, and Christiano is a growth guy, right?

So. The right person at the right time and in the cash, it powered the networks, like the power of the networks up into the cloud and says in lots of different ways.

Sriram Viswanathan: Yeah. But it's, it's fascinating because I think, uh, as a early stage venture capital firms, you know, Celesta, you know, we are. We're involved with much, much different scale of problems and issues to deal with and the board and, you know, as, uh, as some of my partners, uh, and I always talk about, you know, in the Valley being founder friendly is usually.

Uh, talked about, you know, very positively, where in reality you should be business friendly. You need to make sure you're doing the right things for the company. And if in that process you have to make some decisions about transitions, uh, you know, it's clearly much easier when you're a much smaller private company, but the, you know, the core of it, you're dealing with people.

Uh, what is your. I mean, I'm sure in your experiences in the various boards that you're on, I'm sure there are situations where you're having to have some very tough conversations. What, what's the one thing that, or one of, you know, a few ideas that you would give people that, how do you, how do you approach the tough conversations?

I mean, is it. Just be blunt and be crystal clear, or do you use a different approach or how, what is your style?

Mark McLaughlin: I think you, I think you said the answer, which is you're dealing with people. Every person is a person. They have their own life, uh, their own issues they're dealing with, right? And there's an intersection.

This is business, right? So there's an intersection point for all of us in our personal lives and the business you're associated with. And you're fortunate. When those things intersect for a time where it's all working, they will not intersect forever. Uh, somebody gets sick, right? Uh, you're going to move to a different state.

I don't know. Right. But are the business changes or the business needs change, right? But this intersection point, if you can hit the intersection point and you get three, five, seven, I don't know, maybe 10 years time where, where it's working because the intersection works, you should be grateful for that.

And you need to be aware of that as a leader, be aware of that with people, right? And then say, there are many times when the intersection is not going to work anymore. We scaled past you, right? Or skill sets change, or, or your priorities change, like in the case of your case where. Your family became a higher priority.

Something happens, right? Um, you, you call in rich, right? I don't know. Right. You know, there's a lot of things that can happen there and not try to ride it too long on the intersection when there's, it doesn't matter anymore. Right. And, and so I think that's, that takes, that takes a lot of time and a lot of effort, and I think in generally for hard charging business people, particularly in Silicon Valley and tech, things move very quickly.

And if you don't actually take the time with people as individuals, you are probably going to make those intersection points shorter than they could be. On the other hand, sometimes people like let them go too long. So it's, it's a very personal thing. And I find that being a leader, whether it's a board or CEO, or whatever the case is, is about, are you willing to put time into the people, right?

There are some people whose style. Is say, this is just business, right. And they're super blunt and they don't take the extra time. And, and, uh, you know, look, that works sometimes, right. Um, it usually works when the business is working and it usually has its consequences, the business is not working because loyalty is about an inch deep.

Then, right. Yeah. Maybe like a financial transaction. So that's not my style. My style is to, I really like to know. I'd like to know who you are.

Sriram Viswanathan: Right. It's, it's interesting because I think, uh, you Uh, the famous line is, you know, people don't remember what you tell them, they remember how you made them feel.

So even in the tough conversations, if you made them feel, you know, that you're being honest and authentic, and it seems like that's a, that's a, that's a huge trait in your, uh, in your, in your life and the various experiences you've had. Uh, let's, let's, let's switch to, uh, some of the more recent things, um, you know, in addition to obviously Qualcomm and.

And Snowflake, these are, these are big companies. These are companies that are, that are potentially, you know, uh, category defining, uh, leaders in their respective areas, but you're also involved in much, much earlier stage companies, you know, or escape, you know, you and I are involved in that, you know, along with order dine, uh, in, in, uh, in security.

And you're involved in AI talk about. Your excitement in AI, I mean, cyber security and AI are very integrally, uh, you know, correlated because there are lots of ways by which you can get very sophisticated in the security business. So, so talk about the AI aspect of, you know, is that the reason why you're getting involved in earlier companies?

Mark McLaughlin: To, to some extent. So I think, um, You remember I said before, uh, all of us, uh, you're, You're, you have been better at this than me just looking at your CV. Right. You know what I'm saying as an investor, um, you know, if you're around long enough. You're going to live through a number of tectonic technology shifts.

The question is whether you even know it. Right. And if you do know it, do you want to be involved in this? And if so, right, how to do that. And, uh, so I think AI is for sure. One of them, I don't know how it's going to play out. We all have heard, you know, but it's for sure one of them. So I, you know, I'm pretty interested in it.

Um, but AI kind of hits a lot of different points of where I'm putting my time. So not only is it, not only is security going to be fundamentally changed by AI and like, or escape, for example, as a player there, um, but also data and also, um, also compute, right? So the things that Qualcomm doing, for example, around AI are very, very interesting.

So it's probably the outside of cybersecurity. The only one of the tectonic shifts that I've actually been salt, you know, aware enough to say, Hey, this is happening, right? I'd like to know more about it and have the ability to be a student and try to meet. Really smart people who have an opinion and put all these puzzle pieces together.

Now, not for any specific outcome, because it's interesting. And I'm in a position, which is very fortunate. Get to work with, you know, I get to do what I want to do, work with people I want to work with, which is not something everybody gets to do. Um, so I'm fortunate that way. And. The companies I'm associated with, whether the publicly traded ones, or I'm an investor or advisor to dozens, you know, uh, kind of have that theme.

Sriram Viswanathan: Do you, do you impedance match your, the way you help these companies and coach them? Uh, as they are small versus, you know, Qualcomm or Palo Alto at a, at a bigger level. Do you, I mean, do you have to tweak anything in your approach with these companies?

Mark McLaughlin: Yeah, I think everything's stage appropriate. Right. Um, so the, outside of the publicly traded companies, um, and by the way, when I left the Palo Alto Networks, I, if you would've caught me then, this is one of those, um, you know, be careful about your expectations.

If you'd caught me and left the Palo Alto Networks, I would've told you 100 percent certainty. Okay. I won't sit on any public company boards after, you know, eventually I'd get off Palatinetworks, which I did after five years, you know, but I'm not going to do that. You know, after I'm off Qualcomm, Palatinetworks, someday I'll be off Qualcomm.

Yet here I am on three, you know, publicly traded portrait. Um, I would have told you, I probably wouldn't be living in Silicon Valley right now. Almost certainly I wouldn't be. And, you know, and, and you're here in September and here I am. And, you know, so you'll be careful about setting your own expectations, right. And be open to those things. Um, most of the work almost entirely. They do outside these public traded boards is because folks, you know, either like yourself or like Lightspeed or Sequoia or Greylock or Edvin kept people I've gotten to know over time. Have called me and said, Hey, we've got this really interesting young company with this really interesting, you know, young CEO who you would love to talk to you about your experiences.

And one commonality in all those is they're usually a hyper growth situation or potential hyper growth. And the CEO has humility and self awareness, right? Otherwise I don't want to spend time. And so at least it's capable of being coached to get that.

Sriram Viswanathan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But they're at least open to it

Mark McLaughlin: Right. So. When I get the chance, uh, or an opportunity, I'll talk with somebody and I'm not trying to do anything. It's not a business for me in any way. It's more like a give back to talk to somebody once. Right. And then I'll say, this is what I'm doing. And, and, uh, I'll say, oh, here's my thoughts about that.

Right. And I don't know, the next percent of the time, then there's a second call and a third call and, you know, and then X percent of the time they say, Hey, would you like to invest in the company or be involved with this? And so I've kind of fallen into that in a way that For me is interesting. I get to meet great people a hundred percent of the time with those people.

They could be 26, they could be 35, they could be 47 and a third time. See, it doesn't matter. Right. 100 percent of the time, our conversations will always tend towards at some point life, you know, and all the decisions and how do you deal with stuff? Things we were talking about before. And, um, uh, and, and to that extent, there's one common thing that we all have.

And it's, we only have so much time and how am I spending it? And, and we always talk business, but we always talk about not cause I'm trying, not cause I'm trying, you know, cause we're all dealing with those things.

Sriram Viswanathan: So how, how, um, this is, this is truly remarkable, Mark. I mean, it's just great to listen to you.

Um, you know, it sounds like as much as technology, um, It's a big factor in you getting attracted to, you know, getting involved in any one thing or the other. It sort of goes back to your, your, the five point paradigm. You're, you're measuring what you're going to commit your time to through a different lens.

And that lens seems to, you know, sort of composite image of. You know, they're the people, the personal situation, the market opportunity and what you can do and some core values, where do you get all this continued inspiration? I mean, what do you, what do you read? What do you listen to? Or what's, what's on your day on your nightstand?

Mark McLaughlin: Um, things have modified on that over time, but I would say two categories primarily. Uh, particularly when I was running companies, I would, I would enjoy leading, uh, reading about leaders who are in, uh, crisis situations. Um, almost none of them were business leaders, by the way. Yeah. Um, because I really don't read business books at all, right?

Um, but it was just about leadership. And who do you put at the top of that list? Winston Churchill, you know, I mean, you know, it'll be some of the obvious ones. It'll be a lot less obvious ones where you go, I never heard of that guy or that lady before, right? Um, but, you know, kind of go deep into these different segments all the way back into the 1600s, right?

You know, and say, these people were in these situations. Yeah. And they may, they did, they did something that was very hard. Usually the hard thing they did was to, um, you know, do the right thing versus the popular thing and take a long view and, and sometimes burn their own reputation in the process and finish themselves right from a career perspective, but yet they did the right thing.

And so I take a lot of, you know, read, read and continue to read about those folks and then. You know, on the, and we all have our own version of this, my, my version of this, I'm going to put it on the spiritual side is say, or, and you can call it philosophical, you can call it whatever you want, but say, what are we doing here?

Sriram Viswanathan: And yeah. Are you a religious person?

Mark McLaughlin: Uh, very. Yeah. I hadn't been for all my life kind of thing, but the longer I live, uh, the, the more I come to some conclusions that you could, um. You can call them religious. You can go to them. Cause I know I, I, you know, it's, it's been time with Hinduism and Catholicism and a bunch of different things, but there's a commonality right in all of that, which is what are you doing here and how are you going to treat people along the way?

Are you a giver? Are you a taker? Right. And it doesn't really matter about what you think happens next. Right. It's just about, what about this moment? Yeah. And it all has come back to that one point of what I would leave you with, which for me would be back to that. Just be self aware. Like, you know, you can't, you can't be good with other people unless you're good with yourself.

Yeah. I find that to be impossible, but minimally you're not going to be good with other people. Unless you're at peace with yourself, that doesn't mean that you have to be happy all the time. And you have to have everything. I'm happy. I'm healthy. I'm rich. I'm, you know, I'm all these things. It doesn't mean that whatsoever.

It just means know why you're doing stuff so that you can be at peace with it. And then you can actually interact with people in a way that you're a giver, not a taker every time.

Sriram Viswanathan: Yeah. Well, Mark, I think you're, you're, you're just a fascinating person. I can spend hours just talking to you because I think.

There's, uh, there is a, uh, incredible simplicity to what you're, what you're saying and what guides you, yet it is so difficult for a lot of people to practice it. And you seem to have done that exceptionally well in your life, in your professional career, in your family situation. Thank you for sharing that.

With us, and I'm really looking forward to many more opportunities for us to do stuff together, um, and it'll be a true joy and, uh, Thanks for doing this. I appreciate that.

Mark McLaughlin: Thank you very much for giving me the time.

Sriram Viswanathan:Yeah. Fantastic. And hopefully we'll have you back again when, uh, when one or more of our companies have, uh, other teachable moments that we can talk about.

That'd be wonderful. Okay. Thank you, Mark. Thank you.

Thank you for tuning in to the Tech Surge podcast from Celesta Capital. If you enjoyed this episode, Feel free to share it, subscribe, or leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. We'll be back every two weeks with more insights and discussions of all things Deep Tech. Bye for now.

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